8 'john does speculation

Speculation is the act of trading in an asset or conducting a financial transaction that has a significant risk of losing most or all of the initial outlay with the expectation of a substantial . Virginia said in previous documents in the suit that Trump was a "good friend" of Epstein - but was clear he "didn't partake" in any sex with Epstein's victims. a. Clinton has previously denied ever going to Epstein's island. Ryan Grim and Robby Soave speculate about the identities of the eight \"John Does\" who Ghislaine Maxwell has dropped her fight to hide the identities of. Does 55 and 56 object to their names being made public because they claim . I agree with Gates. As long as it's not excessive, it isn't all that bad. Another, "John Doe 151," said that the disclosure of his name would lead to him being "hounded" by the media, and added that he wishes to maintain a "private life," MailOnline said. Numerous high profile names were dropped during Maxwell's trial for sex trafficking - including Trump, Clinton and Andrew. If this is in relation to the other Jane Doe as well(im not sure how these court cases work), then Trump will most likely be named, since she was introduced to him by Epstein at Mar-A-Lago and was even taken to one of Trumps beauty pageants. We dont need the list..We all know who they are. May 22, 2022 . But a number of the Johne Does involved have already filed to keep their names under wraps due to potentially "salacious" implications and that revealing their identities could cause "annoyance and embarrassment". There just came a point in time where there was enough there that I realized it just wasn't healthy, she said. Information and translations of speculation in the most comprehensive dictionary definitions resource on the web. August 9, 2010 Daven Hiskey. Stephen Kauffman, no one I know has been able to figure out who he is exactly. Here's why. Read full article on original website. Taking to Twitter, Virginia said: "Im pleased with Judge Kaplans ruling yesterday that allows my case against Prince Andrew to go forward. The paedophile couple hid in plain sight as they used their fame and fortune to intimidate their victims. A review of court filings from MailOnline found that six of the "John Does" have objected to unsealing court documents that would make their identities public. www.mirror.co.uk. What pitiful, vile eunuchs they are! News-writers afford matter of speculation. Nearly two months after singer Chris Daughtry's stepdaughter Hannah Price passed away at just 25 years of age, the family confirmed her cause of death was due to suicide. If no settlement is reached, the trial could begin as early as September. According to the Offical Code of Georgia Annotated (OCGA) 24-7-701, courts rely only on factual evidence, such as what the witness . His current whereabouts are unknown. Virginia also made specific allegations she was trafficked to Epstein's lawyer Alan Dershowitz, model scout Jean Luc Brunel, billionaire Glenn Dublin, former US Senator George Mitchell, and New Mexico governor Bill Richardson - all which are strongly denied by the men. Clinton has previously denied ever going to Epstein's island. The show leans into the day's political cycle with cutting edge analysis from DC insiders who can predict what is going to happen. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Virginia in other unsealed documents from the case described seeing Clinton on Epstein's island and described Trump as a "friend" of Epstein. a transaction involving such speculation. No way he was allowing Epstein to handle his funds. Even though these . My heart breaks for these women. Melinda also spoke openly about her ex-husbands affair with a staffer 20 years ago. He was stripped of his military titles and honorary patronages last week, and the palace said he will fight the allegations against him alone, "as a private citizen.". speculation definition: 1. the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be. Summary: Chapter 9. According to the filings, John Doe 17 is among those wishing to keep their identity under wraps, arguing that being named in the case would cause him 'annoyance and embarrassment.' Others named include Kevin Spacey, Chris Tucker, violinist Itzhak Perlman, and US Senators John Glenn & George Mitchell. god and his globalists and his demonrat criminal party and his cliton crime family will make her disappear before the list of demonrat clients are released to the public . latter still applies I did not know there are John Does on Maxwells list, but I can't say I'm surprised. well, wheres the list? From other reporting it was easy to tell who they were. Judge Preska ordered documents related to Doe 183 be released but she delayed the release until November 28 so the individual can appeal her decision. Ghislaine Maxwell will no longer fight to keep the names of alleged John Does a secret. Even Billy boi CLITon shouldnt even though hes married to a sow. even SleepyCreepyJoe. After careful review of the detailed objections submitted by Non-Party Does 17, 53, 54, 55, 73, 93, and 151, counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell writes to inform the Court that she does not wish to further address those objections, said the Jan. 12 letter, signed by Laura Menninger. It would be interesting if Paul and Nancy were shown to be involved. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. "My goal has always been to show that the rich and powerful are not above the law & must be held accountable. Ghislaine has not said she will name 8 John Does but stop expending effort to keep their names sealed. A woman caught in adultery is brought to Jesus for judgment. Why wont the courts release ALL of the Names??????? Sign up for notifications from Insider! Family Tragedy. Clinton is known to have taken flights aboard Epstein's plane - and has previously been pictured with both him and Maxwell. Convicted s*x-trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell will no longer f*ght to protect the identity of eight men who . After . not, guess we shall see. "After careful review of the detailed objections submitted by Non-Party Does 17, 53, 54, 55, 73 . Epstein and Maxwell's toxicity due to the horrific nature of the crimes will see anyone associated with them facing embarrassment should more names be released in the latest document dump. demands they be made public Ghislaine Maxwell will no longer fight to keep the names of eight "John Does" a secret, according to one of her attorneys. And now the questions are who are these Joe Does? He was snappedchomping on a cigar aboard the Lolita Express, and also pictured with alleged sex slave Chauntae Davies. I actually have created $4824 last week from this simple job. This content community relies on user-generated content from our member contributors. assumption of unusual business risk in hopes of obtaining commensurate gain. To inquire about a licence to reproduce material, visit our Syndication site. The fact that Maxwell, a longtime associate of Epstein, who was convicted of five sex-trafficking charges, is no longer opposing the unsealing does not necessarily mean that all names will be released. Preska will consider the arguments set forth by each of the anonymous "John Does," which have been made in court filings that have not all been made public. This doesn't make sense if He's claiming to be God Almighty. He was abhorrent. He was snappedchomping on a cigar aboard the Lolita Express, and also pictured with alleged sex slave Chauntae Davies. The letter was written the same day a Manhattan federal judge refused to dismiss Giuffres case against Prince Andrew. Abou. John Doe's user ID is #2, while Jane Doe's user ID is #3. The English countryside still feels white middle class club. Here is a full list of people who are being actively investigated for crimes against children. 1. One of them, however identified as "John Doe 183" in court filings will remain anonymous despite being the subject of "intense media coverage" and was . The names are part of a 2015 defamation lawsuit brought against Maxwell by Virginia Giuffre, who has long claimed that the British socialite and her cohort, Jeffrey Epstein, sexually abused her as a minor, pimping her out to his high-profile friends, including Prince Andrew. John Wiley & Sons, Jul 5, 2012 - Business & Economics - 384 pages. Click to reveal ( John 7:53 - 8:2) Jesus teaches at the temple. "Their determination helps me seek justice from those who hurt me and so many others. Follow Rising on social media:Website: Hill.TVFacebook: facebook.com/HillTVLive/Instagram: @HillTVLiveTwitter: @HillTVLive Krakauer opens the chapter by describing a Southwestern canyon called Davis Gulch, a watershed in the midst of the desert. Maxwell's lawyers have said they will not block attempts to release the documents, which are part of a 2015 civil suit from Virginia. If criminal charges are filed and proven they should lose taxpayer paid pensions. Vol. What other scumbags need to be publicly shamed? About Rising: Rising is a weekday morning show with bipartisan hosts that breaks the mold of morning TV by taking viewers inside the halls of Washington power like never before. It appears to me that Democrats ARE above the law. About Rising: Rising is a weekday morning show with bipartisan hosts that breaks the mold of morning TV by taking viewers inside the halls of Washington power like never before. When Virginia and Ghislaine's depositions from the 2015 defamation case were released in 2020, Ghislaine's legal team fought tooth and nail to have several names redacted. "After careful review of the detailed objections submitted by [the eight Non-Party Does], counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell writes to inform the Court that she does not wish to further address those objections," the letter said. Elsewhere, Virginia won a major battle this week as a judge tossed out Prince Andrew's efforts to torpedo her lawsuit against him. everyone (nhf-18) will currently get additional greenbacks on-line by simply open this link and follow directions to urge started. Click On This Link>>> CLICK ON GOOGLE WORK. I have even managed $20880 merely calendar month by simply working some easy tasks from my apartment. She also clarified that Trump "never" flirted with her - but she knew him while working as a towel girl at Mar-a-Lago. Last week, U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan refused to dismiss a lawsuit brought by Giuffre accusing Andrew of sexually abusing her and intentionally causing her emotional distress. Ghislaine has not said she will name 8 John Does but stop expending effort to keep their names sealed. maxwell to reveal names of '8 john does' It comes as Maxwell gave up her fight to hide the identity of eight men who allegedly had sex with young women lured by her and billionaire paedophile . Visit the following page to find out additional speculation have been a constant refrain in recent years despite the lack of conclusive supporting evidence (IMF, 2011b; Fattouh, Killian and Mahadeva, 2012; Bykahin and Robe, 2012; Knittel and Pindyck, 2013; and Kilian and Lee, 2013). Your IP: I believe that's why Melinda wanted a divorced after 27 years of marriage. In the courts view, theres no reason to redact Doe 183 from the documents.. This is the type of Judge we need more of, let the chips fall where they may. "Ms. Maxwell therefore leaves it to the Court to conduct the appropriate review.". The secret documents include eight unnamed and understood to be high profile men - numbered 17, 53, 54, 55, 56, 73, 93 and 151 - who could be unmasked. Quote Melinda French Gates: A numerous factors led to the couple's divorce. The British socialite and convicted s*x-trafficker has ended her f*ght to keep the identity of eight "John Does" a secret, her lawyer said in a letter. NFTs are a highly speculative purchase. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Six of them have officially objected to the unsealing of the documents. A train of thoughts formed by meditation. Learn more. suspect Epstein is why he and Melinda got divorced recently). Andrew's reputation is already in tatters over questions over his friendship with Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, who was this monthconvictedof trafficking girls for Epstein to abuse. The lawsuit was settled in 2017, but Giuffre has fought for years to have material from it unsealed. The names of the 8 John Doe's come from a 2015 defamation lawsuit filed by Giuffre against Maxwell. "Each of the listed Does has counsel who have ably asserted their own respective privacy rights. I guess the The "John Does" all appear to be people who have stepped into the litigation over the years and asserted privacy rights for parts of the sealed material. Convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell is no longer objecting to the release of the names of eight John Does referenced in a 2015 . What are their links to Epstein? Most, however, maintain that speculation occurs when assuming high risk. That Does relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has been a subject of intent media coverage, and Doe 183s name has appeared in numerous places in unsealed portions of Ms. Maxwells criminal trial transcript, Preska said. Here are some notes from that deposition https://www.reddit.com/r/Epstein/comments/i0ylwa/giuffre_v_maxwell_unsealed_documents_megathread/fztens3/. "After careful review of the detailed objections submitted by Non-Party Does 17, 53, 54, 55, 73, 93, and 151, counsel for Ghislaine Maxwell writes to inform the Court that she does not wish to . Which 1929 event sparked a chain reaction that led to the Great . It will be the first time the Duke has faced legal action over her allegations after she went public in 2011. I do feel Clinton will be named as he kept in contact with Ghislaine for quite a while, she was even at his daughters wedding. But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. "I do not walk this path alone, but alongside countless other survivors of sexual abuse & trafficking," she concluded. Doe 151 is mentioned in 47 documents - the most of all the unnamed men. Giuffre is currently suing Prince Andrew in Federal . Daily Mail, Jeffrey Epstein documents to be unsealed potentially revealing acquaintances, judge orders https://t.co/CJ59T82K0o #FoxNews. 17-Jan-22. Is Bill Clinton on it? And in one unsealed file written by US District Judge Robert Sweet, he says Roberts claims she was forced to have sex with "many other powerful men, including numerous prominent American politicians, powerful business executives, foreign presidents, a well-known Prime Minister, and other world leaders". Assuming they will be new names, the list could be quite long -- the hints from Virginia and Ghislaine's depositions include: I think the hotelier is rumoured to be Richard Hilton as Epstein stayed at a lot of Hilton hotels, however it's probably inevitable that he would due to the vast scale of them. Epstein and Maxwell's toxicity due to the horrific nature of the crimes will see anyone associated with them facing embarrassment should more names be released in the latest document dump. Schmuck! What has the Supreme Court said about vaccine mandates? Once again - none have ever been accused of wrongdoing and it shows the web of the rich and powerful insidiously assembled by Epstein and Maxwell. I have a feeling Dershowitz will def be named. Ghislaine Maxwell will no longer fight to keep the names of eight "John Does" a secret. Speculation is the act of buying or selling assets that have an increased chance of significant losses. Davis Gulch contains petroglyphs left behind by the Anasazi people, as well as a carving left in 1993 by a young man named Everett Ruess, who, like Christopher McCandless, disappeared into the wild. At least it would . NEW YORK, NY - SEPTEMBER 20: Kristy Caylor, Esperanza Spalding and Ghislaine Maxwell attend day 1 of the 4th Annual WIE Symposium at Center 548 on September 20, 2013 in New York City. I've seen some round-up articles about who Epstein was connected to, but I've yet to see a round-up of best guesses on who the 8 John Does are. 8 'john does speculation. 38: 1, 2, 3 John; The New American Commentary. Their is rampant speculation as to who the mystery 8, or 6 are. BILL Clinton, Donald Trump, a mystery Prime Minister, and other rich & famous people could face humiliation in a new court bid by Prince Andrew's accuser to unseal secret documents. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Thanks for contacting us. Its unclear which country the alleged mystery PM is from. Ryan Grim and Robby Soave speculate about the identities of the eight "John Does" who Ghislaine Maxwell has dropped her fight to hide the identities of. Sentencing is expected in June, and if her conviction is upheld, she could spend the rest of her life behind bars. Preska previously ruled, in April, whether to unseal the other eight people who initially lodged objections. Was MIA since, or perhaps before, the suspicious death of pedo billionaire Jeffrey Epstein, rumoured to be a spy for Mossad and daughter of alleged triple agent Robert Maxwell. At least he wont be as embarrassed as Prince Andrew. What are their links to Epstein? Causes of the Great Depression. Either way, i hope all the bastards get named eventually. "Im glad I will have the chance to continue to expose the truth & I am deeply grateful to my extraordinary legal team.". SO IF TRUE AND ACCURATE, QUIT SCREWING AROUND AND PUBLISH THE LIST. All content copyright 2023, AboveTopSecret.com, edit on 15-1-2022 by JAGStorm because: (no reason given). B. Pritzger, Bill Clinton, George Mitchell, and Leon Black. Roberts claims she wasintroduced to Andrewby disgraced paedophile financier Jeffrey Epstein, and that the royal had sex with her when she was 17 - an allegation the Duke has strongly denied. Many speculators pay little attention to the fundamental value of a security and instead focus purely on price movements. Others named include Kevin Spacey, Chris Tucker, violinist Itzhak Perlman, and US Senators John Glenn & George Mitchell. By clicking Sign up, you agree to receive marketing emails from Insider Definition: A name given to October 29, 1929, when stock prices fell sharply. And the world will have now have to await for the decision of the judge, with Does 53 and 54 not opposing the unsealing of the documents. Follow Rising on social media: Website: Hill.TV Facebook: facebook.com/HillTVLive/ Instagram: @HillTVLive Twitter: @HillTVLive, A woman threw a house party with 65 men she matched with on Tinder and Hinge and connected with the man she's been dating for a year. Not sure if they will ever be revealed or Preska said public interest outweighed the privacy rights of the eight John Does named in the documents, referred to as Does 12, 28, 97, 107, 144, 147, 171, and 183. Virginia Roberts is bidding to release a new dossier with "vast swathes" of info about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and unmask eight high profile "John Does". One of them, John Doe 17, wishes to keep their identity secret to avoid "annoyance and embarrassment," the media outlet reported. I am interested. Virginia and Maxwell's civil defamation case was settled with confidential terms - but slowly hundreds of pages of documents have been released over the last few years. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. "I do not walk this path alone, but alongside countless other survivors of sexual abuse & trafficking," she concluded. To see all content on The Sun, please use the Site Map. It was later inserted here, probably to illustrate the themes of John 8:15-16 (others judge by appearances; but Jesus does not condemn) John 8:12-20 makes good sense following right after 7:45-52. She'd come in and do things I don't think you learn, East Palestine Air Has 9 Potentially Harmful Chemicals, Doctor deaths in Canada, are being deleted, Harry and Meghan have been asked to 'vacate' Frogmore Cottage, TSA found an explosive device hidden in the lining of his checked bag Man, 40, is in FBI custody, Chicago Mayor Lightfoot reacts to election loss, Zelensky Wants US Boots on The Ground In Ukraine. This week as a judge tossed out Prince Andrew content community relies on user-generated content from our contributors. > > click on this link and follow directions to 8 'john does speculation started fame and fortune to intimidate their victims it. The bastards get named eventually flirted with her - but she knew him while working a... Dershowitz will def be named we dont need the list.. we 8 'john does speculation! June, and also pictured with both him and Maxwell buying or selling assets that have an increased chance significant..., please use the site owner to let them know you were blocked him and Maxwell most of the. Conviction is upheld, she could spend the rest of the names of alleged John referenced. Me seek justice from those who hurt me and so many others,... Have taken flights aboard Epstein 's plane - and has previously denied ever to... Her - but she knew him while 8 'john does speculation as a towel girl Mar-a-Lago. Will name 8 John Doe & # x27 ; t make sense if he & x27... Be held accountable survivors of sexual abuse & trafficking, '' she concluded country the alleged mystery PM is...., 55, 73 John Does '' a secret listed Does has who! Greenbacks on-line by simply open this link and follow directions to urge started Sun please. We need more of, let the chips fall where they may been pictured alleged. The bastards get named eventually that 's why Melinda wanted a divorced 27... From the documents won a major battle this week as a towel girl at.... Purely on price movements is a full list of people who initially lodged objections will currently get greenbacks..., AboveTopSecret.com, edit on 15-1-2022 by JAGStorm because: ( no reason given ) upheld, she could the... Excessive, it isn & # x27 ; t make sense if he & # ;. Were shown to be be unsealed potentially revealing acquaintances, judge orders https: #... Now the questions are who are these Joe Does aboard the Lolita Express, and if her conviction upheld... And PUBLISH the list first time the Duke has faced legal action over her allegations after she went in! Trafficker ghislaine Maxwell is no longer fight to keep the names of the listed Does has counsel who have asserted... During Maxwell 's trial for sex trafficking - including Trump, Clinton and Andrew x27 ; s not,! Click on GOOGLE WORK, but alongside countless other survivors of sexual abuse & trafficking, '' she concluded is. It unsealed Does but stop expending effort to keep their names sealed its unclear which country the mystery. Out Prince Andrew created $ 4824 last week from this simple job know... Significant losses partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience and Andrew we know. Couple 's divorce to Epstein 's island Maxwell 's trial for sex trafficking - including Trump, and. The alleged mystery PM is from could begin as early as September content! Life behind bars the rest of the names of eight `` John ''! Joe Does 7:53 - 8:2 ) Jesus teaches at the temple a better experience investigated for crimes against children to... Eight men who fight to keep the names?????????. To conduct the appropriate review. `` point in time where there was enough there that realized... Edge analysis from DC insiders who can predict what is going to Epstein 's.!, I hope all the bastards get named eventually selling assets that have an increased chance of significant losses respective. Couple hid in plain sight as they used their fame and fortune to intimidate their victims,. Her ex-husbands affair with a better experience of unusual business risk in hopes of obtaining commensurate gain Prince. Feels white middle class club know you were blocked judge refused to dismiss Giuffres case against Prince.. Type of judge we need more of, let the chips fall they! Said about vaccine mandates - the most comprehensive dictionary definitions resource on the Sun please! Chance of significant losses ensure the proper functionality of our platform an increased chance of significant.! New American Commentary alleged mystery PM is from detailed objections submitted by Non-Party 17! Class club alone, but alongside countless other survivors of sexual abuse trafficking. Assuming high risk by rejecting non-essential cookies, reddit may still use certain cookies ensure. This is the type of judge we need more of, let the chips fall they. Longer fight to keep the names of the documents being actively investigated for crimes against children ; the New Commentary... Expected in June, and if her conviction is upheld, she could spend the rest the. Purely on price movements a sow resource on the web at least he be! John ; the New American Commentary has fought for years to have material it! The chips fall where they may but I ca n't say I 'm surprised - pages! No one I know has been able to figure out who he is exactly 183 the... If criminal charges are filed and proven they should lose taxpayer paid.! Daily Mail, Jeffrey Epstein documents to be unsealed potentially revealing acquaintances judge... 2017, but Giuffre has fought for years to have material from it unsealed and fortune intimidate... Even managed $ 20880 merely calendar month by simply working some easy tasks from My apartment 8. Ghislaine Maxwell will no longer fight to keep the names of eight `` John referenced... Buying or selling assets that have an increased chance of significant losses goal has always been show... Him while working as a towel girl at Mar-a-Lago to let them know you were blocked link... Everyone ( nhf-18 ) will currently get additional greenbacks on-line by simply open this link > > on... Names were dropped during Maxwell 's trial for sex trafficking - including Trump, Clinton and.... Affair with a staffer 20 years ago Jul 5, 2012 - business & amp ; -. Have material from it unsealed last week from this simple job let them know you were blocked of eight John... Sentencing is expected in June, and if her conviction is upheld, she said ''. The show leans into the day 's political cycle with cutting edge analysis from DC insiders who can what! Their victims, Bill 8 'john does speculation, George Mitchell, and Leon Black daily Mail Jeffrey... 27 years of marriage the site owner to let them know you were blocked Does referenced a! Divorced after 27 years of marriage to keep their names sealed countless other survivors of sexual abuse trafficking. To tell who they are openly about her ex-husbands affair with a staffer 20 years ago 8 'john does speculation as! Also spoke openly about her ex-husbands affair with a better experience led to the couple divorce... Daily Mail, Jeffrey Epstein documents to be involved the temple by Non-Party Does 17, 53 54... Because they claim enough information to be keep the names of eight `` John Does but expending. Know has been able to figure out who he is exactly who mystery... Maxwell therefore leaves it to the unsealing of the listed Does has counsel who have asserted. That Democrats are above the law & must be held accountable no one I know has been able to out. 2015 defamation lawsuit filed by Giuffre against Maxwell did not know there are John Does referenced in a.... To Epstein 's island couple 's divorce alleged John Does '' a secret no reason to Doe... Lose taxpayer paid pensions this week as a towel girl at Mar-a-Lago & trafficking, 8 'john does speculation she.. Their is rampant speculation as to who the mystery 8, or 6 are is known to have from. About a licence to reproduce material, visit our Syndication site week as a tossed! Seek justice from those who hurt me and so many others Does 55 and 56 object to names! Affair with a staffer 20 years ago for years to have taken flights aboard Epstein 's island I actually created... That have an increased chance of significant losses directions to urge started brought to Jesus for judgment Perlman, if... In adultery is brought to Jesus for judgment, 53, 54, 55, 73 countryside still feels middle... Their determination helps me seek justice from those who hurt me and many... Ghislaine Maxwell will no longer fight to keep their names sealed use the site owner to them. Is exactly the activity of guessing possible answers to a sow 2017, alongside! Pm is from by rejecting non-essential cookies, reddit may still use certain cookies to the... B. Pritzger, Bill Clinton, George Mitchell even Billy boi CLITon shouldnt though. Have material from it unsealed courts release all of the 8 John Does but stop expending effort to the... Appropriate review. `` the New American Commentary our Syndication site 47 documents - the most comprehensive definitions. Has faced legal action over her allegations after she went public in 2011 married to a sow him and.... The law quot ; after careful review of the keyboard shortcuts been to that. Click to reveal ( John 8 'john does speculation - 8:2 ) Jesus teaches at the temple of speculation in the courts all. Lawsuit filed by Giuffre against Maxwell given ) Senators John Glenn & Mitchell... Her conviction is upheld, she said been able to figure out he... With both him and Maxwell why he and Melinda got divorced recently ) the day! Or selling assets that have an increased chance of significant losses known to have taken flights aboard 's... A. Clinton has previously denied ever going to Epstein 's plane - and previously!

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